Sabbath on Saturday

My real name is Garry Gadd

- November 17, 2009 at 02:20:41

Brad has put a lot of effort into his presentations. I stand behind Brad and I admire him for his efforts. I am going to ask each of you who have posted here to attend the last few meetings that Brad will host. Everyone has the right in this country to speak freely... come spend an hour with Brad this Friday...

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  Fed Up

  - November 22, 2009 at 18:36:41

  Way to go Garry. I think that's a great idea. This is from Fed Up otherwise known as your former pastor's wife in B.C.

Gideon

- November 14, 2009 at 15:45:28

Snapple, religion definitely does not have all the answers, that's why I went to the place that does have all the answers - Christianity. Religions are a dime a dozen, especially in our 'enlightened' age. Yours, for example, makes a lot of claims that qualify for any faith-based system, and it hasn't come near to providing conclusive, irrefutable proof beyond any reasonable doubt for many of those claims, as would be required in any court of jurisprudence. Yes, man does change, and quite frequently, and that is looked upon as something favorable, even superior, in our finite understanding. God, however, does not change. He is the Alpha and Omega... the Beginning and the End. Evolution, Abiogenesis, whatever you wish to term it, is a protracted process that cannot be directly observed, but, we are still supposed to take it on 'faith' that it is so. You started your post with the assertion that science doesn't have all the answers, then you immediately contradict yourself by claiming that Abiogenesis is the only real answer. That is typical infidel reasoning. Well, there are, as you first inferred, many questions about evolution and origins that science hasn't answered or verified, certainly not enough to hold the dominant position it does in our institutes of learning and education. It's monopoly over other beliefs speaks volumes about our society, and about those who actually run things. I'm not against science, I believe that it has an indispensable role in our lives, however, merely noting the existence of certain organisms and/or bacteria doesn't explain how they got here, and, we still cannot explain exactly what electricity is, or how it came to be, never mind comprehending the atomic processes contained within it, or whatever processes drive those processes and whatever foundation they are built upon. The so-called "Theory of Everything", the holy grail of physicists, is no closer to their realization that it was twenty years ago, and, who is to say that theory isn't anything more than what Christians have known all along... that God is the author of all processes occurring within this universe? And, as for Christianity holding anyone back, I can say that discovering Christ was my Creator and Master, substantially IMPROVED my lot in life! Of course, you only have my word on that, but, I really don't have any more evidence for what you and other atheists tell me is absolute fact, either, so, there we are. What it all boils down to, I guess, is which faith has more to offer? One that guarantees only that you'll eventually die, and, that you and all of your accomplishments will eventually be lost to eternity, or, the alternative that suggests that there is an ultimate purpose behind our existence, and that we are where we are in history because of an error in human judgment, and that God is in the process of fixing that error. Life IS an amazing feat, and, as your very descriptive term implies, there had to be Someone to pull it all off. Inanimate matter cannot instigate anything, however, a divine mind can. True, no one is better off with 'religion', yet we're all winners with Christianity.

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Snapple

- November 14, 2009 at 11:38:54

Just because science doesn't have all the answers doesn't mean religion does either. People used to think disease was caused by an angry god(s) until the invention of the microscope for example or that the Earth was flat and our sun revolved around the Earth. Science is a changing model that is based on evidence it isn't fixed like religion is. Science does not have all the answers for our abiogenesis creation from simple molecules to replicating organisms but our understanding of this is coming and is essential for modern medicine, knowing how we are put together from scratch will open many doors in treating illness and disease. I'm not saying there is a lot of people out there that would be better without religion, it does give people a sense of comfort when times are rough, but it can also hold people back from doing something amazing with their life because they think they will get rewarded after death. I'm comfortable with this being all we get and I plan on making the best of my time here for the benefit of humanity and not a God/Godess or any other mystical creation. Life is an amazing feat, it is far more compelling than any creation story in history, the biggest difference is it takes a lot more work to understand than the stories in the holy books. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - Carl Sagan

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Gideon

- November 13, 2009 at 12:48:04

You're a legend in your own mind, Jabrone, I'll give you that. Check out that link I gave Dave and learn something... after your wife gives you your meds, that is.

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Jabrone

- November 13, 2009 at 09:54:10

Nor do I usually give the delusional fanatics so much of my time but I do seem to be enjoying this somewhat like a cat playing with his ignorant mouse. My wife is a nurse, so there goes your little pointed theory.

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Gideon

- November 13, 2009 at 03:14:37

For Dave - You might find this reference interesting, and, yes, it is a Christian scientist's work, and, yes, it happens to verify some of the things you mentioned, especially concerning entropy. Christians can benefit from this as well, it did me. The link: http://www.ccel.us/gange.toc.html/ Enjoy!

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Gideon

- November 13, 2009 at 03:11:30

For Dave - You might find this reference interesting, and, yes, it is a Christian scientist's work, and, yes, it happens to verify some of the things you mentioned, especially concerning entropy. Christians can benefit from this as well, it did me. The link: http://www.ccel.us/gange.toc.html/ Enjoy!

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Gideon

- November 12, 2009 at 19:38:05

Jabrone, (is that short for jabbers-on?) I don't make it a practice to suffer fools for any length of time, but, in your case I'll make an exception... only to address your last moronic comment. How do you know that the nurses are pretty in the institutions... are you speaking from experience, here?

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Anna1

- November 12, 2009 at 11:53:01

Re Fed Up: Who said I don't accept God in my life?? I never said that. I said i don't accept the SDA church and its interpretation of the Bible. So basically you are saying I'm doing it 'wrong.' Typical. Just like Brad's article quote "a day of rest on Saturday is something specific for people who worship God of the Bible." Insinuating that those who don't do this are worshiping some other God, not of the bible hence a false idol - earning them the 'mark of the beast' - which is the next topic in his seminar series. You're dead on I absolutely hate the Seventh Day Adventist church with a passion, your interpretation of that is that I also renounce God which is totally not true - I embrace God - I'm just not doing it like you. Get over it and butt out.

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• 

  Fed Up

  - November 13, 2009 at 16:55:32

  Anna 1 There's an awful lot of anger for someone who says she loves God. I never said you were doing anything wrong. Those are your words, not mine. I'm trying to think of the words to say to you and all I can think of is how sorry I feel for you. I wish you could see past your own hatred for a moment and realize that this is not about being an SDA. Personally I was baptized into Christ, not a denomination. This is me 'butting out", but I will point out that if you don't want people butting in, don't write comments on topics and expect to spew your hatred without receiving a few comments back.

jabrone

- November 12, 2009 at 10:22:08

Jamaal, I have the benefit and bonus of science as a tool to prove humans evolved over time, and didn't spawn by means of magical pixie dust. See, evolution is fact and can be observed and proven time and time again, despite the fanatics efforts to hide their heads in the sand. Facts that cannot be dis-proven by any means or any amount of fanatical raised voices and medieval scary talk. I have the benefit of living my live to the fullest and thinking for for myself unlike the fanatic sheep who need to be told how to tie their shoes properly or they wouldn't leave the house. Its great to live life knowing that I am responsible for my thoughts and decisions fully and they are not put there by some guy taking my money every Sunday and spending it on crocodile shoes and underage boys (and eventually legal defense). Zombie Jesus forgives him too though. When the world DOESN'T come to a grinding halt in 2012, the fanatics will make up a new date for their mass exodus to fantasy land and come up with new theories about how the big bad muslims are out to steal their toys. Does anybody REALLY believe they are going to click their shoes and disappear leaving their clothes in a pile on the ground? Those fanatics deserve to be in one place, and its got locked doors and pretty nurses.

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Talk about brainwashed

- November 12, 2009 at 10:00:24

Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, 'I'm willing Lord, I'll do whatever you want me to do.' Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas.

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Gideon

- November 12, 2009 at 00:23:38

Jamaal, I never enter into any debate like this expecting to win anyone over. And, you're right that neither side can conclusively prove by any conventional means that they are correct. I came here to give an opinion, that's all. I don't lose any sleep worrying about whether anyone here thinks I'm right or wrong. I do happen to have the advantage in all of this, because, even if I were wrong, (and I'm not) I'm not out anything. I lose nothing by living my life in accordance with the teachings of the Master. In fact, I can expect that my life will be all the better for living by the Golden Rule. If I were an infidel, however, my position would not be so secure. If the infidel were right, I would simply live out my "four score" and then expire, as we all do, this side of the resurrection. I may, indeed, have to die before Christ's second advent, I don't know. It really doesn't matter, as my assurance is that this life is not the end. I don't have the gloomy prospect that the infidel has, in that this life is all there is, and ever will be. Conversely, though the infidel is wrong, I suppose they will have what they expected. The tragedy will be that they didn't have to settle for death. The tragedy will be that they CHOSE their own fate. I equate the scenario with voluntarily walking off a cliff. You can, but, why would you? What purpose would it serve? So, you see, there is a winner in this... it's me! I sleep soundly every night, knowing that no matter how many tales we hear of disease, war, natural calamity, there is a promise that these things will eventually pass away. These things weigh on the minds of the infidel, because, they know they have only one kick at the can, and they want that one and only kick to be as gratifying as possible. Indeed, it has to be, for there to be any meaning to such a pointless existence as theirs. Pointless, when you consider the alternative.

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Jabrone

- November 11, 2009 at 20:50:32

You keep bringing up the same 10 second video clip as if it holds any bearing on anything. I guess you really are a one trick horse. If I am a so-called "infidel" what do you call religious people who attack anyone for the simple reason of asking questions they cannot answer? What do you call people who would burn people at the stake or blow themselves up killing people to defend their beliefs? Anyway if you believe taking a couple of hour long interviews and taking 10 seconds out of context makes your case, so be it. Evolution is fact and theory, until proven otherwise - religion is nothing more than pie in the sky "faith". Here's your hero John Lennox caught lying again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24vWUeMnXBg

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Jamaal James

- November 11, 2009 at 14:51:59

Is this argument still actually happening? You guys are going to be here debating until your dying day, because no side of this argument, whether religious or agnostic, has absolute proof to back their beliefs. Hence my initial statement that you'll all just have to believe what you will, and agree to disagree. Nobody's gonna win this one, so you may as well all quit bickering.

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Gideon

- November 11, 2009 at 12:04:43

*Yawn* Dawkins ALWAYS does well, when he preaches to the 'choir'... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg&feature=fvw/, but, when he doesn't have his support group around him, it's a different story... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g/. So, you see, it's easy to trade shots about the personalities and character of others, especially when you have others of like mind helping you out. (Or the absence of a moderator to detect multiple posts under different names by one author!) That way, you don't have to have a particularly strong platform under you. Take the troll/trolls, here, for example. He/they have no investment in any particular position, so he/they have nothing to lose by engaging in frivolous and unintelligent banter about nothing at all. Anyway, I've stated my position quite clearly, I believe, and without having to do it under different aliases. Science aside, it's always been my experience that the opposition toward Christianity or any other religion by some so-called atheists, is not consistent with the definition of the term. I think the term "infidel" would better describe some of those here that attack for no other reason other than they feel threatened by God and Christians. Fear and prejudice is what drives these people more than any motive. The idea of them not being the center of this or any universe is galling to them, coupled with a wish to compel the thoughts and actions of others. Naturally, these things are foreign to the Christian in any proper sense. A good maxim to apply in this case would be to say of the infidel; "Methinks thou dost protest too much." To any others, I would encourage them to question what is more and more becoming dogma in a supposedly secular world.

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Cant believe some people

- November 11, 2009 at 04:17:02

Ben Stein? Really??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9bEFoaQOwg

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Jabrone

- November 11, 2009 at 03:56:16

See ya Gideon, don't let the door hit you on the way out! You post a bunch of sweet nothings and demand explanations and answers from the other side and call it a debate. Maybe posting some substance and facts would help your cause.

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Gideon

- November 11, 2009 at 03:34:49

Jabrone... thanks for proving you're just a troll. No explanations, no answers, just ridicule. From here on in, you're ignored. Same goes for your playmate, Ray. Good night... to everyone else, that is!

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Gideon

- November 11, 2009 at 03:29:17

I no sooner hit the "submit" button, then another poster arrives! Dave, you've given a far better argument than most, here, tonight. However, you are still basing a lot upon supposition and, I suspect, what you've been told by the evolutionists regarding how things MUST be. You naturally assume, for example, that energy must behave in the way you say it must. How do you know that it isn't influenced (or created) in other ways that haven't been observed? And, you attribute mutations as something beneficial... an evolutionary 'step', as it were, but, to what end? Do you imagine this as life trying things out to see what works best, doing away with what doesn't? Isn't that ascribing nature with some form of consciousness with a specific agenda? If so, what's wrong with a Christian attributing life and it's processes to a deity's control? Assuming that the 'experts' have it right concerning entropy, might be dangerous from a quantum perspective, as perhaps those (your) observations are flawed, given their (science's) own recognition of the fact that at the elemental level, nothing can be observed without unduly influencing it's position and function. (Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle) And, how do you define disorder? How is a flat riverbed disorder? Maybe the thing we call order is not order from a quantum perspective! I interpret disorder as something like the society we have today - highly regulated, sterile - nothing like the way it was, say, two hundred years ago. Society, in my view, is breaking down, though to the scientist, it might seem to be improving! Your assumptions that life need not carry the full genetic sequence for adaptation and survival, and that the sun provides all the necessary energy/components for our survival, are based upon just that... supposition. Anyway, good points, but, it's late, and I can't give your post the full attention it deserves. Later...

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ray

- November 11, 2009 at 03:24:39

J.J it must be some good stuff you're smokin there! It must be intelligent design because....well because!

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Jabrone

- November 11, 2009 at 03:20:59

Gideon, Nice of you to duck and run, not that it was unexpected, you really can't back anything you say and try to twist things enough so as to cloud the conversation. Maybe you can pray to god for some sign, lol.

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Jabrone

- November 11, 2009 at 03:13:43

I suppose if human beings walked the earth billions of years ago we might be in a better position to present information about what happened billions of years ago and take samples, photos and videos. Unfortunately all we have is science and transitional fossils from reptile to mammal, from land animal to early whale, and from early ape to human. Do some reading on the subject (i know you won't). Do you have any PROOF the biblical characters walking the Earth doing all these magical things? Nope. You rely on a book written by some guy a few hundred years ago, that was re-written and updated time and time again any time it was deemed necessary to catch up with the times and make it more believable to todays folk. When are they going to update the last supper painting to remove Mary Magdalene anyway, cause thats just downright confusing when they say 12 disciples? That's the funny part, faith is just that. You say "i have faith" because you can't prove any of it. Scientific theories are theories because they can't be disproven by science ( or religion, lol) or proven as 100% fact, sorry bud. At least science has transition from theory to proven FACT or the garbage can. Religion is 100% pie in the sky and has no basis or backing whatsoever. Toodles!

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J.J.

- November 11, 2009 at 02:51:30

Ray, every time I look at another human being I see evidence of God's creation; from cell to neuron to reflex to conditioned reflex to brain stem to higher brain, then back down the final common path to the controlling neuron. The system shows a basic simplicity of design. Where is design in your "primordial ooze"? Then there's bone function: stress-bearing, hollowed out, filled with an efficient blood cell factory. Yep, climbed right up out of the ooze; on those 26 architecturally perfect conglomerate of bones called feet. Bull pucky.

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Gideon

- November 11, 2009 at 02:46:34

Well, thanks for that, Tyler, that was a good history lesson. Some of those points have already been made, I know I made a few. I also know that with long threads, it's hard to read everything that's been written, so the chances of repetition are high. Seeing as how I've made a good percentage of the comments, here, it's time I moved on. There isn't much more I can add to this. You folks have fun, maybe I'll check out those meetings, myself. I'm signing out of this, so if there are any more "Gideons" show up after this comment, they're fake, like that other one I mentioned earlier. All the best...

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Dave

- November 11, 2009 at 02:33:12

"Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics." This shows more a misunderstanding about thermodynamics than about evolution. The second law of thermodynamics says, "No process is possible in which the sole result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body." Now you may be scratching your head wondering what this has to do with evolution. The confusion arises when the 2nd law is phrased in another equivalent way, "The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease." Entropy is an indication of 'unusable' energy, and often (but not always!) corresponds to what we might think of as disorder or randomness. Creationists thus misinterpret the 2nd law to say that things invariably progress from order to disorder, and never the reverse. However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still? Creationists sometimes try to get around this by claiming that the information carried by living things lets them create order. However, not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere. If 'order from disorder' is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why does it happen so often in nature? The thermodynamics argument against evolution displays a misconception about evolution as well as about thermodynamics, since a clear understanding of how evolution works should reveal major flaws in the argument. Evolution says that organisms reproduce with only small changes between generations. For example, animals might have appendages which are longer or shorter, thicker or flatter, lighter or darker than their parents. Occasionally, a change might be on the order of having four or six fingers instead of five. Once the differences appear, the theory of evolution calls for 'differential reproductive success'. For example, maybe the animals with longer appendages survive to have more offspring than the others. All of these processes can be observed today. They obviously don't violate any physical laws.

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Tyler

- November 11, 2009 at 01:48:08

Get the facts str8t: That Brad dude is the only guy whose postings don't have a biting edge to them. Maybe we could all learn to show such grace in the face of overwhelming personal attacks. BTW: Read the Bible to see what it's saying about the topic being discussed...What is GOD'S TRUTH, as set out in the inspired word of God? 60 Bible Facts on the Seventh-day of the Week 1. After working the first six days of the week in creating this earth, God rested on the seventh day. Genesis 2:1-3. 2. This stamped that day as God's rest day, or Sabbath day, as Sabbath day means rest day. To illustrate: When a person is born on a certain day, that day thus becomes his birthday. So when God rested upon the seventh day, that day became His rest, or Sabbath, day. 3. Therefore the seventh day must always be God's Sabbath day. Can you change your birthday from the day on which you were born to one on which you were not born? No. Neither can you change God's rest day to a day on which He did not rest. Hence the seventh day is still God's Sabbath day. 4. The Creator blessed the seventh day. Genesis 2:3. 5. He sanctified the seventh day. Exodus 20:11. 6. He made it the Sabbath day in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 2:1-3. 7. It was made before the fall; hence it is not a type; for types were not introduced till after the fall. 8. Jesus says it was made for man, that is, for the race, as the word man is here unlimited; hence, for the Gentile as well as for the Jew. Mark 2:27. 9. Not only is the Sabbath made for man, but Jesus said that He was Lord of the Sabbath. Mark 2:28. 10. It is a memorial of creation. Exodus 20:11; 31:17. Every time we rest upon the seventh day, as God did at creation, we commemorate that grand event. 11. It was given to Adam, the head of the human race. Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3. 12. It is not a Jewish institution, for it was made 2,300 years before ever there was a Jew. 13. The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." Men should be cautious how they stigmatize God's holy rest day. 14. Evident reference is made to the Sabbath and the seven-day week all through the patriarchal age. Genesis 2:1-3; 8:10,12; 29:27,28, etc. 15. It was a part of God's law before Sinai. Exodus 16:4,23-29. 16. Then God placed it in the heart of His moral law. Exodus 20:1-17. Why did He place it there if it was not like the other nine precepts, which all admit to be immutable? 17. The seventh-day Sabbath was commanded by the voice of the living God. Deuteronomy 4:12,13. 18. Then He wrote the commandment with His own finger. Exodus 31:18. 19. He engraved it in the enduring stone, indicating its imperishable nature. Deuteronomy 5:22. 20. It was sacredly preserved in the ark in the holy of holies. Deuteronomy 10:1-5. 21. God forbade work upon the Sabbath, even in the most hurrying times. Exodus 34:21. 22. God destroyed the Israelites in the wilderness because they profaned the Sabbath. Ezekiel 20:12,13. 23. It is the sign of the true God, by which we are to know Him from the false gods. Ezekiel 20:20. 24. God promised that Jerusalem should stand forever if the Jews would keep the Sabbath. Jeremiah 17:24,25. 25. He sent them into the Babylonish captivity for breaking it. Nehemiah 13:18. 26. He destroyed Jerusalem for its violation. Jeremiah 17:27. 27. God has pronounced a special blessing on all the Gentiles who will keep it. Isaiah 56:6,7. 28. This is in the prophecy which refers wholly to the Christian dispensation. See Isaiah 56. 29. God has promised to bless all who keep the Sabbath. Isaiah 56:2. 30. The Lord requires us to call it "honourable." Isaiah 58:13 Beware, you who take delight in calling it the "old Jewish Sabbath," "a yoke of bondage," etc. 31. After the holy Sabbath has been trodden down "many generations," it is to be restored in the last days. Isaiah 58:12,13. 32. All the holy prophets kept the seventh day. 33. When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. Luke 4:16; John 15:10. Thus He followed His Father's example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son? 34. The seventh day is the Lord's day. See Revelation 1:10; Mark 2:28; Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 20:10. 35. Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28), that is, to love and protect it, as the husband is the lord of the wife, to love and cherish her. 1 Peter 3:6. 36. He vindicated the Sabbath as a merciful institution designed for man's good. Mark 2:23-28. 37. Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, He carefully taught how it should be observed. Matthew 12:1-13. 38. He taught His disciples that they should do nothing upon the Sabbath day but what was "lawful." Matthew 12:12. 39. He instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection. Matthew 24:20. 40. The pious women who had been with Jesus carefully kept the seventh day after His death. Luke 23:56. 41. Thirty years after Christ's resurrection, the Holy Spirit expressly calls it "the sabbath day." Acts 13:14. 42. Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, called it the "sabbath day" in A.D. 45. Acts 13:27. Did not Paul know? Or shall we believe modern teachers, who affirm that it ceased to be the Sabbath at the resurrection of Christ? 43. Luke, the inspired Christian historian, writing as late as A.D. 62, calls it the "sabbath day." Acts 13:44. 44. The Gentile converts called it the Sabbath. Acts 13:42. 45. In the great Christian council, A.D. 49, in the presence of the apostles and thousands of disciples, James calls it the "sabbath day." Acts 15:21. 46. It was customary to hold prayer meetings upon that day. Acts 16:13. 47. Paul read the Scriptures in public meetings on that day. Acts 17:2,3. 48. It was his custom to preach upon that day. Acts 17:2,3. 49. The Book of Acts alone gives a record of his holding eighty-four meetings upon that day. See Acts 13:14,44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4,11. 50. There was never any dispute between the Christians and the Jews about the Sabbath day. This is proof that the Christians still observed the same day that the Jews did. 51. In all their accusations against Paul, they never charged him with disregarding the Sabbath day. Why did they not, if he did not keep it? 52. But Paul himself expressly declared that he had kept the law. "Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all." Acts 25:8. How could this be true if he had not kept the Sabbath? 53. The Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament fifty-nine times, and always with respect, bearing the same title it had in the Old Testament, "the sabbath day." 54. Not a word is said anywhere in the New Testament about the Sabbath's being abolished, done away, changed, or anything of the kind. 55. God has never given permission to any man to work upon it. Reader, by what authority do you use the seventh day for common labor? 56. No Christian of the New Testament, either before or after the resurrection, ever did ordinary work upon the seventh day. Find one case of the kind, and we will yield the question. Why should modern Christians do differently from Bible Christians? 57. There is no record that God has ever removed His blessing or sanctification from the seventh day? 58. As the Sabbath was kept in Eden before the fall, so it will be observed eternally in the new earth after the restitution. Isaiah 66:22,23. 59. The seventh-day Sabbath was an important part of the law of God, as it came from His own mouth, and was written by His own finger upon stone at Sinai. See Exodus 20. When Jesus began His work, He expressly declared that He had not come to destroy the law. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets." Matthew 5:17. 60. Jesus severely condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites for pretending to love God, while at the same time they made void one of the Ten Commandments by their tradition. The keeping of Sunday is only a tradition of men.

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Gideon

- November 11, 2009 at 00:50:55

Ray, I've watched ALL the videos, Dawkins & Co. are real good when matched with laymen and/or young girls, but, as in the case of Ben Stein and other knowledgeable opponents, the scales tend to tip a little. You only need to look ahead of your own personal bias a tad, and that's all I have to say to you. It never ceases to amaze me the ferocity that atheists (atheism supposedly stating a non-belief in deity) display when attacking those that worship what is in their view an imaginary God, or that God, Himself! I, myself, never get worked up to the point of railing against something that I know doesn't exist. Would that indicate a certain level of mental instability that far surpasses the level required for belief? Food for thought!

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Gideon

- November 11, 2009 at 00:35:51

Well, Jabrone, you haven't offered that much, yourself. How about giving us your proof, like I asked you to? Would you like to give us an example of any new molecular information 'evolving' at the genomic level? That would go a long way to proving your assertion that life has and still continues to evolve. While you're doing that, you might explain how matter was able to defy the second law of thermodynamics and continue to 'evolve' even at the most immediate post-singular stage of development, without incurring total annihilation. I'd also like you to explain why you haven't found that elusive "missing link" that your evolutionary friends have so often had to resort to forgery and deception to provide evidence of. That should keep you busy for awhile, I know it's eluded Dawkins & Co. thus far. As for MY proof, what I learned in my biology classes never explained what I just asked you to explain, which is why I'm asking. It explained certain processes that relate to the functioning of PRESENTLY LIVING organisms, but, it never conclusively proved those processes that supposedly occurred billions of years ago. And, just because an organism is capable of adaptation in minor environmental instances, doesn't prove that it's learning new things on it's own. They could just as easy be latent processes designed to trigger under certain environmental and chemical promptings. You need a designer for that. Also, I CAN produce an example of intelligent design... ANY creature you like, here, on this Earth! And, the FACT that we humans design and create all the time is proof that there could be another Creator more highly advanced than us! Even Dawkins admits that in his interview (that you won't watch) with Ben Stein. Barring all of these former impossibilities, you show me where the higher sensibilities and emotions that characterize the human being, would actually benefit any organism struggling to merely gain a foothold on existence and sustaining itself in the violent primordial environment that the naturalists tell us existed, way back when! So, Jabrone, before you make any demands of me for proof of my faith, you better start with your own, and justify it's veracity before you climb all over me with accusations of pie-in-the-sky delusions manufactured for reasons of personal aggrandizement and profit! I wonder what Professor Dawkins pulls down every year promoting his religion? Bet it's more than any Christian preacher makes!

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Fed Up

- November 10, 2009 at 23:12:41

Re Anna 1 I hate to break it to you, but you are so obviously blinded by your hatred that your Biblical ignorance is showing. Ellen White had absolutely Nothing to do with correct Bible interpretation. If you would take some time to study the subject you would find that all of the reformers had exactly the same beliefs. Anna I beg you to study your Bible without prejudice. I am a Pasor's wife and I wear jewllery,my husband and I dance and we love to go to contemporary Christian concerts and I am not, nor will I ever be, a vegetarian. We are currently also doing a Bible Prophecy Seminar which is totally based on the truth of the Sanctuary message. In fact it is that truth that led us to accept all the truth of the Bible. I can see that, unfortunately, Ellen White has been used to beat you into the truth. This is not about Ellen White, this is about a relationship with God. I personally have not read any of her books for years. I do read my Bible. Remember Anna the first table of the law is an expression of loving God with all you heart, mind and soul. Matt 22:37, 38. Are you telling me that you don't love God? Every theology student in Canada receives a Greek new testament( not just SDAs) from the Canadian Bible society. If you look at the reference to Rev 14:7 you will see that it takes you back to Exodous 20:11 which is a call to keep God's Sabbath. Every Greek scholar knows that. I pray that God will reach your heart with His word and you will want to have a full and loving and knowlegeable relationship with Him.

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Ray

- November 10, 2009 at 22:57:00

Here's a debate that you won't bother to watch. Hitchens and Dawkins have yet to lose a debate with the delusionists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnMYL8sF7bQ

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Jabrone

- November 10, 2009 at 22:45:06

Thanks for typing all that to say nothing at all Gideon. The proof things evolve is all around you if you open your eyes. If you want to see complexity, try taking a biology course or two with your bible studies. A simple example of evolution occuring is when insects or bacteria become resistant to pesticide and medicine over time. Can you provide me a simple example of creationism? ....I didn't really think so, its all wishful thinking and pie in the sky prophecies that change to suit the times and fill the churches pockets.

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Gideon

- November 10, 2009 at 21:46:00

The proof is in the natural world around us... it's complexity practically SCREAMS design. Of course, there isn't any "proof" that an atheist will accept, other than the speculation offered by their gurus, which, is tantamount to no proof at all. Atheists always try and shift the burden of proof onto Christians, hoping that no one will notice their own tenuous position. Science has it's place, but, as Dawkins, himself, stated, it has nothing conclusive to offer outside of what can be observed NOW. Going back billions of years to an event that no one witnessed, influenced by nobody knows how many physical and environmental factors, can only result in speculation, and that, my friend, is tantamount to discarding science, as defined, for faith. Your name-calling and insults belay any real interest you have in learning anything, Jabrone. You've made up your mind as to what you will accept for truth, and no one will convince you otherwise. The only "BS" offered here has been by trolls and those that profess atheism, so that shows who feels threatened. I certainly don't. Anyway, it's been 'nice' talking with you, but, I have other fish to fry, this night. Have a good night.

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darwin

- November 10, 2009 at 21:35:42

First, we should clarify what "evolution" means. It has more than one meaning. Biologically, it means "a change in allele frequencies over time." By that definition, evolution is an indisputable and observable fact. Most people seem to associate the word "evolution" mainly with common descent, the theory that all life arose from one common ancestor. Many people believe that there is enough evidence to call this a fact, too. However, common descent is still not the theory of evolution, but just a fraction of it (and a part of several quite different theories as well). The theory of evolution not only says that life evolved, it also includes mechanisms, like mutations, natural selection, and genetic drift, which go a long way towards explaining how life evolved. Calling the theory of evolution "only a theory" is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. There is a confusion between what "theory" means in informal usage, and in a scientific context. A theory, in the scientific sense, is "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply 'tentativeness' or 'lack of certainty'. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more compactly. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory mainly because of the last point; it makes few or no specific claims about what we would expect to find, so it can't be used for predicting anything. When it does make predictions, they prove to be false.)

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Ray

- November 10, 2009 at 21:31:44

J.J next your going to tell us the "Theory" of gravity is all false as well aren't you? It is a FACT that the earth, with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a FACT that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period, and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a FACT that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a FACT that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a FACT that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun. There is evidence in the ground, and in cave paintings, and in our own DNA.

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Jabrone

- November 10, 2009 at 21:20:06

So you are saying there are no scientific facts supporting the theory of evolution if I have this right? You might be so kind as to offer us some proof of intelligent design... I said PROOF. And sorry Gideon you are a typical religious sheep. Talk a lot of BS about something you obviously know very little, trying to deflect attention from the fact that you believe in an invisible man.

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Gideon

- November 10, 2009 at 20:38:14

Jambrone, I didn't have to do anything to smear Dawkins or his alcoholic buddy. As you can see, they do a good enough job of that on their own. They can't prove anything they surmise about origins, and, if you'd been listening to Dawkins' raving and stammering at Stein in that video I linked, instead of dreaming up ways to attack me and other Christians, here, I wouldn't have had to drag your sorry butt back to that fact. Of course, your only purpose here is to disrupt, just like the other "Gideon", isn't it?

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J.J.

- November 10, 2009 at 20:34:07

JABRONE-there are no facts to support evolution. You missed the word "theory" somewhere along the way. I was almost convinced of evolution when I met my brother-in-law, but he's still the same as he was 40 some years ago; only less hairy, still loud; just swinging from a different tree. So.... there goes that theory.

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Gideon

- November 10, 2009 at 20:27:11

Nice try, troll. That's what your ilk resort to, isn't it? Impersonating and misrepresenting another commenter when you're not intelligent enough to offer any counter argument of your own. Typical and pathetic. That video is just another pathetic shot at something the video author knows absolutely nothing about. Like you, his intelligence is limited to innuendo and gross ignorance... not to mention stupidity. Well, no further commentary needed there. It's evening, now, and all of the ditch-diggers and janitors are off work, and can go down into their mom's basement and play on the computer till bedtime. Alternating between porn sites and trolling forums like this, pretty much rounds off your typical troll's day. Good job, sonny!

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FJP

- November 10, 2009 at 20:14:28

Lets go back to the issue, shall we? It is written: "Speak also to the Children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. ... work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord....therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed. And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God." Exodus 31:13-18. Now, in Daniel 7:8 & 25, it talks about a beast power that represents a man: "... were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking pompous words... He shall speak pompous words against the Most High... and shall intend to change times and law." Now, my question is: "Should you or I obey man or obey God? Obedience is the result of love, of faith. "I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart." Psalm 40:8. I, myself, choose to stand on God's side.

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Jabrone

- November 10, 2009 at 19:32:10

Hey Gideon, Typical religious hateful behavior when referring to someone like Dawkins or Hitchens. At least they can provide irrefutable scientific facts in a debate of evolution vs intelligent design, and all you fanatical types can do is say you "know there's a god because you found it in a book of brainwashing or someone told you it was so". Don't ask questions just follow the lead sheep.

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gideon

- November 10, 2009 at 19:26:12

Ten absolute, irrefutable, God-approved proofs that Christians are right and atheists are dumb and deluded! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P47OC439x88

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J.J.

- November 10, 2009 at 17:38:26

Hmmm...does anyone know how to put worms back in their can?

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Gideon

- November 10, 2009 at 17:19:20

Fortunately, TA, most people don't have your totalitarian mindset. Of course, the term "zombie Jesus" immediately identifies you as a troll looking to start a flame war, as that is a popular term among the lowbrow set. Maybe if Jesus had been a belligerent chain-smoking alcoholic like Christopher Hitchens, one of the so-called "Four Horsemen" of atheism, he'd have been more to your liking? Or, if he'd been a disturbed, hypersensitive, sarcastic, arrogant, hate-filled, resentful, and generally unpleasant person like Richard Dawkins, who couldn't find it within himself to give a young lady a civil answer to her question of his accountability, maybe that would have endeared the Savior to you a little more? If you check out the link I provided in a previous post, that shows Dawkins in action debating Ben Stein, along with the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg/, you'll see what I mean. So you see, TA, Christians don't have the monopoly on Bronze Age thinking or mannerisms. They can learn a lot from how atheists operate, too, in that regard.

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TA

- November 10, 2009 at 16:59:02

TRUTH TELLER beat me to the quote from Steven Weinberg :"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Religion has been a bane on society for far too long, it holds civilization back to backwards bronze aged thinking and violent behavior attributed to ridiculous methods of controlling people. While we are at keeping the sabbath 'holy' maybe we should bring back stoning to death of disobedient children or mass genocide of people that deny the christian zombie Jesus.

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Jamaal James

- November 10, 2009 at 14:08:02

I dare say that this article has sparked much heated debate, and apparently irritation. Just curious, but why is it that we are so quick to downplay, or ridicule the faith of others? Yes, each one of you may believe in different things than Mr. LaLonde, but that doesn't necessarily make you right, and him wrong. The beauty about faith and ethics, is that they are personal choices and opinions. Some may feel like they're being preached at, but if this is the case, you can use your freedom of choice not to read this article, just as Mr. LaLonde can use his freedom of speech and religion to spread the message of his faith. Expressing your disgust or disagreement with his faith, is a moot point. He is certain of what he believes, and you are certain of what you believe, so sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. The ignorance and intolerance in some of these posts, is just mind boggling. Show a little bit of class. I may not agree with what Mr. LaLonde says or believes, but I'm not about to tell him that he's wrong or call him names for it. Seriously guys and gals, use your heads.

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Gideon

- November 10, 2009 at 13:12:26

In Anna1's defense, I'd have to agree that there is a certain amount of dysfunctional behavior that goes on in any denominational setting. It's different from secular organizations, primarily, in that one tends to expect more from a group professing a heightened moral awareness. The plain truth of the matter is that people don't cease being fallible, simply because they become Christians and join a church. The ideal would be that churches offer an environment that's safe and secure, but, oftentimes they don't. However, it is also the duty of those entering fellowship that they, themselves, do not bring in any hostile element that would only aggravate the situation further. If one is argumentative and otherwise difficult to deal with, don't expect that you'll get a lot of sympathy. Myself, I don't participate in any corporate worship. The Bible doesn't encourage that kind of attitude, but, it's what works for me. I find that there is a lot of thought-control in denominational groups, and I'm not the kind of person that follows easily. I like to think for myself. Nevertheless, I don't go around trying to tell others what course they should follow. I've seen some of what Anna1's described, and I'd be a liar if I said it wasn't there. Again, I would counsel her to simply move on to another setting that is more agreeable, yet without compromise to Bible truth. There is safety in numbers, and a support group of like-minded people is invaluable.

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Anna1

- November 10, 2009 at 12:53:11

Re Fed Up - In the adventist church the bible is only 'right' when it agrees with Ellen White. The adventist church is founded on the biblical interpretations of a fraud. That's the devil being crafty...and excuse me but the flyer I got in my mail about this seminar series was fear mongering, and this forum was not about the grace of God it was about Saturday sabbath - which according to SDA is the holy grail of salvation ( along with vegetarianism, no dancing, no jewelry, tithing etc). I am not fooled by the supposed benign proclamation of sabbath worship. SDA teaches that Sunday worshipers are babylon. They won't say they are bad people - they just can't go to heaven. As for my being 'baked' go read about the 'great disappointment of 1844' and the subsequent 'investigative judgement' to smooth it over. now that's BAKED. Since bible quotes win points on this thread here is one for you: Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. Matt. 7:15

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JesusLoves Me

- November 10, 2009 at 11:32:43

Anna1? I don't believe you're baked at all. You simply stated your experience and I, like you, attended a major denominational church that taught us one thing one week and threw it "out the window"(I'm quoting the teacher) the next. That was only one red flag. There were several more but I'm not here to dump on that denomination. I know without a doubt these people believe in God, but the devil is crafty; he likes to mix lots of error with the truth people already know, hence all the man-made traditions people dream up to earn God's favor. It can't be done. So we end up worshiping tradition instead of the Living God, Jesus Christ. But...pursue God long enough, He will turn around and catch you. How do you do that? By reading the love letter He wrote Mankind and asking Him to explain it. He knows your heart and your every word even before you speak. He loves you and He stands at the door. When He knocks, and He will at least once in your life, please invite Him in.

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Gideon

- November 10, 2009 at 10:29:01

Well, Quran, if there were no God, there'd be no Christians to razz, and you'd be out of a job. On the other hand, there's no end of weird and fanciful 'religions' out there for inquiring minds like yours... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtEjtlirc

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ANNA2

- November 10, 2009 at 06:47:30

Anna you are simply baked no matter what subject you chose to comment on.

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Truth teller

- November 10, 2009 at 04:14:24

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

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Quran

- November 10, 2009 at 04:07:11

What if God disappeared? This video explains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCuc34hvD4

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Fed Up

- November 10, 2009 at 03:21:48

This is for Convenient. You might want to change your post name after reading this. The evening and morning were the first day. Genesis 1:5 And the eveniing and the morning were the second day. Genesis 1:8 And the evening and the morning were the third day. Genesis 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Genesis 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:31 And by the seventh day God completed His work which He had done and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. Genesis 2:2,3 My question for Anna 1: Why are you so terrified of the idea that the "right answers" might actually be right. I mean after all if everything is so open to interpretation why such vitriol on the subject? By the way there are some good Adventist schools and some not so good Adventist schools. Nobody's perfect. We never claimed to be. I'm sorry you had such a rough time, but does that preclude the possibility that some of those heinous things that you learned could actually be right? I think you need to do a lot of maturing. This is not about the Adventist Church or what happened to you in school. This is about the truth of God's word and the incredible changes that truth can make in one's life. I for one am so grateful to God that he gave me the gift of the truth of his word. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. John 8:32 This is about a God who loves you so much He would have died on the cross even if it had only been for YOU! Is it really asking so much that we show some gratitude for the indescribable and uncomparable love that He has demonstrated for us?

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Gideon

- November 9, 2009 at 23:12:05

Anna 1, the world and I apologize for your lousy life.

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Gideon

- November 9, 2009 at 23:03:52

Like you, Stevo? What's your agenda, here, tonight?

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Frim

- November 9, 2009 at 22:33:01

It is true, I am Seventh-Day Adventist Christian. However, here are my thoughts on religion in general: I don't believe there are "right" and "wrong" religions. A religion is a group of people who share common beliefs. God did not create religion. I chose to be a Seventh-Day Adventist Christian simply because I believe that it most closely follows and believes what Christ taught in the Bible. Keeping the Sabbath holy is clearly commanded by God in the Bible in the ten commandments and in various other verses. This is one of the biggest differences between SDA's and some of the other religions. I believe this commandment is meant for all people, for all time, this is why I observe this day as God's holy day.

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Jeff Albertson

- November 9, 2009 at 21:46:37

Wonder how many of these people who claim to keep the sabbath holy go out to eat after church on the sabbath.If you eat at a restaurant, buy gas,stop by to buy a loaf of bread, you are supporting those heathens that are working on the sabbath.Don't forget if you eat shellfish,wear clothes made of multiple fabric, or let someone with a big nose into your house of worship, you're a sinner too.It's impossible to follow all of the rules in the bible. Just try and be a good person.

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anna1

- November 9, 2009 at 21:42:48

Okay - true - I clearly have issues with SDA, I liken it to child abuse, I struggle to move on, I'm working on it. And J.H.C - your post is dead on, amen brother. As for my mention of Jesus or lack there of, I fully believe in God and Jesus and feel His presence in my life. I do not believe that I need an institution or bible instructor to help me interpret that relationship on my behalf.But since I was subjected to that for 15+ years it is obviously a sore spot for me. I believe our relationships with God should be pure not institutionalized and that's what churches are 'institutions.' Catholics don't even believe you can talk to God yourself, you need a medium to do it on your behalf! And yes "ME" SDA is all about the bible. Sabbath school students memorize the books of the bible, a memory verse every week, weekly 'bible lessons' etc. what a group of well trained parrots. It's as spiritual as Catholics reciting memorized chants. It's just ritual folks, going through the motions.

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Gideon

- November 9, 2009 at 21:37:47

Well, it sure sounds like you've got the ignorance part down pat, "Jesus". But, then, everyone's entitled to your opinion, aren't they? So, what's your story? Some Bible-puncher pee all over your toast, too? LOL!

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me

- November 9, 2009 at 21:11:03

So I might not be SDA but Anna1 uses Google as a reference and her own experience to determine what truth is hmm plus she hardly has mentioned Jesus at all but only herself. James 1:2 "..Count it all Joy.." If God allowed you to have a bad past count it all joy not count it against others. Truth is absolute and that doesn't mean you'll like it especially if you are thinking of yourself. The articles interesting that’s for sure. And whomever JJ is I might by grace have someone pay for my drivers license and every ticket I will ever get driving but I still need to learn to drive and not drive horrible because it put's others life in danger. James 2:20,Rmns6:15-16 The only people in this discussion who even have the character that Christ used to have and more than a token bible verse taken out of biblical context seem to be the people who are support The Sabbath. Gal5:22-23. "THERE is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. " Romans 8:1 How can you walk without directions to the Kingdom of God. I agree with DL out of love you obey God. It’s not about what you don't have to do but what you get to do. Oh and P.s Anna If you read the book . And they are not a cult read the book written by the Christian Research Institute called kingdom of the cults( i believe by ravi zacharias) its very clear biblically that they are more biblical then most Sunday churches .

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Jesus H. Christ

- November 9, 2009 at 21:05:20

If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler

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Stevo

- November 9, 2009 at 20:58:55

Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, 'I'm willing Lord, I'll do whatever you want me to do.' Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas.

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Gideon

- November 9, 2009 at 19:50:53

(For J.J.) There isn't anyone that can keep the commandments of God in their own strength for ANY amount of time without grace. The "Mosaic Law" as you term it, represents the express character of God. It didn't just come into existence at the time that Moses received the tablets. It was in force at the time of Adam, (what do you think it was that Adam transgressed?) even before the creation of the world! And, Adam, like the Israelite of old, was justified by Christ's intervention, though it was yet a future event. If the Sabbath is now abrogated and covered by Christ's sacrifice, then I suppose it's alright to murder and commit adultery, as well. Anyone for a little thievery, by any chance? A little false witness? Or, is it just one point in ten where there is a problem? Oh, I forgot... tradition made Sunday the substitute for Saturday. God didn't have any say in it, but, He's just a bystander in many so-called Christian's lives, anyway. It will be a relief to all of the murderers, child molesters, etc, to know that they can't sin, because Christ already paved the way to heaven for them! He might have meant something different when He mentioned that He was not doing away with the law, but upholding it, and that obedience (to the law) was better than sacrifice. God told Cain as much when Cain came bitching to Him about his troubles, and was admonished to do what he was told and everything would be fine. Christ's sacrifice isn't license to sin. It's purpose was to draw men back to God through assurance of forgiveness IF they do. When you forgive someone, you do it with the expectation that they won't repeat the offense, at least not willingly. However, it's always a pleasure to do for someone that gets you off of the hook. That's what having the law 'written' on one's heart means. The work of God's Spirit should never be forgotten or overlooked.

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Jordan

- November 9, 2009 at 18:45:45

I have to give a point to the dude that every one is jumping on. All he is taking about is recognizing the sabbath. And everyone takes that as the que to unload years of repressed religious prejudice. anna1 if its not for you its not for you, maybe some people need that control in their lives these places genuinely do want to help people. Recognize it, don't recognize it. you'll find out when you die... You know what i have had with this law of gravity. people who believe in the law of gravity are just trying to keep me down (no pun intended). And I have had some pretty bad experiences with grocerer's where do these guys get off telling me when my foods gonna go bad. Wahh Wahh Wahh Suprisingly Unexpected.

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Anna1

- November 9, 2009 at 18:37:54

I found an ex-seventh day adventist support group. read this Brad, they're talking about people like you "Bible INSTRUCTORS" Ask any Adventist how long it will take to understand God and they would probably state that we will spend eternity trying to understand God. But, ask them about any particular theologic question and they hand you the Adventist Box and say "it's all right here." It finally became clear to me after one non-descript Collegiate Sabbath School class. I regret to say that I do not remember the exact topic of discussion but it was concerning the plan of salvation issue. I posed a "what-if" question that was outside the realm of normal discussion concerning the topic. I could see that there was some mild confusion on the part of a few individuals. I said what I had to say hoping it would stimulate a wider discussion. What I was met with was a short silence and then a "welldoes anyone else have something to add?" They, of course, did have "something" to add, the "right" answer, in the form of the "right" verse, which lead to the "right" conclusion for that particular topic. It struck me then that no one appeared interested in growth but just having simple satisfaction of knowing that they had the "right answers" for every question worth asking. It was representative of a common theme that I had been aware of my entire life. I had noticed before that the Sabbath School lessons had, obviously, set an agenda for studying the Bible. With the agenda preplanned and set, you simply open your Bible, connect the dots and sit back in smug satisfaction knowing you have the "right" answers. The whole time you are missing out on the true message of the Bible. The Bible is a personal letter sent by the God Most High to everyone who will take the time to read it. God is passionate about pursuing a genuine relationship with EVERY individual on this planet. That can only take place if we engage God fully and allow Him to teach us. That Sabbath School class revealed to me the concept of "The Agenda." That's what stuck in my craw. Adventism seemed to be ALWAYS about pursuing "the Agenda." The Bible was never picked up and studied liked it was revered to be -- the inerrant Word of God. The Bible was simply the tool by which Adventists sought to prove the theories and philosophies as interpreted through the writings of Ellen G. White. This is the universal error that MANY churches fall into. People always ask why there are so many denominations and this is why. Instead of reading the Bible and letting the Holy Spirit guide, they read what they want to hear and then use the Bible to support their agenda. Many people want to feel special, like they have something or some understanding that sets them apart. This is pride, pure and simple, and it has no place in our worship and devotion to God. I became frustrated after that episode at Sabbath School. Was anyone truly interested in getting to know God better? Were they content to let their relationship stagnate? How does an earthly relationship grow if it is not nurtured and new experiences shared? We can take a short look around any given neighborhood and be overwhelmed with examples of what happens when relationships are allowed to languish. It was my observation, that this is precisely what Adventism was doing. Because they have Ellen White, they possess all knowledge and wisdom concerning God. They have "the Truth" so what purpose does genuine, in-depth study serve. Study is rarely or never about finding deeper truths, just about justifying the position they already have. How can a relationship with a real God flourish under that kind of stagnated attitude? Year after year we "danced" around the same pole, discussing the same topics, following the same trains of thought and, always, arriving at the same conclusions. Growth? That's a very dangerous thing. Let people open up the Bible without assistance? There's no telling where that might lead. "You'd better leave the thinking to us," is the basic attitude. The people might come to a different conclusion and then where would the church be. It boils down to command and control.

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Anna1

- November 9, 2009 at 18:25:39

"I'm sad to hear that there are those who count it a burden to spend a full day with their Lord adn saviour..." if that isn't a sanctimonious, pretentious statement what is??? You SDA cultists haven't changed one bit!!! gaaa I can't stand it. I need shock therapy to block out the memories... I feel sorry for deluded people like yourself who think quoting bible verses can hide your true intention of self praise and worship. I need to go google an ex SDA support group....

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Brad LaLonde

- November 9, 2009 at 18:08:52

Jesus is Grace. I am sad to hear that there are those who count it a burden to spend a full day with their Lord and Savior. If I am not mistaken, you are quoting Romans 6:14, and I would like to add the very next verses... "What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" Jesus death covers our sins when we make mistakes, and come to Him for forgiveness (1 John 1:9). His death does not give us license to sin, but forgiveness when we have sinned. Jesus sums up the Law in one word, Love- Our Love for God, the first 4 commandments, and our love for man, last 6 commandments in Matthew 22:36-40. No one, myself included, can keep these 100% of the time in our own strength. That is why we have the promise in Hebrews 10:16-17 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," (17) then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." This is God's promise that He is the one changing our hearts to be like Him. "Come unto me... and I will give you rest" Matthew 11:28. I would have to say the Sabbath to me has more to do with Loyalty than legalism.

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Bruster

- November 9, 2009 at 17:55:46

I'm sorry to hear of the bad experiences some commentors have had with the SDA church. Attending an SDA school provided me with a primary education that was second to none, laying a ground-work that allowed me to excell in my highschool, undergraduate and post-graduate education. This, all made possible by a supportive family and some of the most devoted, hard working teachers that can be found. Likewise, my lifelong involvement with the Adventist church has provided me with companionship, hope, healing, and, most importantly, a genuine love and longing for my Lord, Jesus Christ. It is my prayer that he will touch your lives, that you might know Him. As for the seminars currently being presented, I think all that have had the opportunity to attend will agree. I have found them to be well articulated and insightful, stenghtening my faith in Christ.

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J.J.

- November 9, 2009 at 17:27:02

I only have one more thing to say to Mr. Lalonde and that is: "We are not under Law; we are under Grace." Mosaic Law was given to the Jewish people by God to show them they couldn't possibly keep His Commandments 100% of the time, in their own strength. Jesus is the fulfillment of that Law. He IS grace. Stop with the legalism, already.

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ANNA1

- November 9, 2009 at 16:56:16

As far as I am concerned SDA is equivalent to a cult. I had the terrible misfortune of attending an Adventist school and consider it to be the lowest form of sub-standard education I have ever received. My most prominent memories are "if any books are found on your bible you get the strap" and "all the kids at the other schools are going to hell because they listen to rock music and dance." nice. I can't get far enough away from SDA, iIwas traumatized by my experience with these people. I got the seminar flyer in the mail and I just shuddered. Your seminars are designed to attract more people to the church - which I understand suffers greatly from new membership, not unlike other churches of course but SDA is, IMO, self inflicted and deserved. nasty people, nasty place. I'm scarred for life.

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Gideon

- November 9, 2009 at 16:02:03

Amazing the vitriol that merely mentioning Christ or God attracts! By some of these 'testimonies', the community must be full of tortured souls! A free society tolerates diverse opinion, even that which doesn't conform to personal desires or preferences. Humanism is becoming less tolerant of it's opposition, I'm seeing. No mention, though, of the crimes perpetuated by those of the humanist persuasion. The likes of Marx, Lenin, and other despots. Serial killers like Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, etc, all fine upstanding products of the 'system'. Naturalism, specifically Abiogenesis, requires as much or even more faith as that which is required of a Christian. For instance, the doctrine of matter originating from nothing, then somehow imbuing itself with not only life, but, a sense or awareness that it must "evolve" past that state which it already has for it's existence and survival, seems rather pointless in addition to being impossible. Other fixed laws of nature are totally skirted and/or ignored, such as the law that states that all natural processes degrade over time. Yet, Abiogenesis tells us that matter not only maintains it's form, it also evolves... becomes even better! Time wasn't invented by man, it is one of the four fundamental dimensions of the universe. Man's measurement of time hasn't changed, either, our weekly cycle has remained unchanged for thousands of years. This is confirmed through astronomy. The Bible writers understood the Sabbath to occur on the seventh day of the week, which, is still Saturday. There is a tradition naming Sunday as it's replacement, with a fairly specific date, but, it was made without any divine authority, more as a means of unifying two different cultures. Anyone claiming the Bible as their guide, will have to observe it's seventh day requirement or claim tradition as their creed. As for "working on the Sabbath", there are many definitions of work. If a minister preaches on Sunday, he's also working, by the commenter's definition. Physics tells us that merely lifting one's arm to a horizontal position is work. It also has the 'potential' for work while at rest. The Pharisees of old had many ideas of what constituted work, and, they weren't shy about 'sharing' those views with the rest of the Jews, either. In fact, it was mandatory to share those views! It might be safe to say that any activity undertaken on the Sabbath that tends to defile the purpose for the day - remembering the creator - is what is prohibited. We all have an idea of what holy behavior is, but, there are some occupations that all can find synonymous with their standard for improper Sabbath observance. Stating what is written in Bible text isn't judging, or we'd be judged by every science text book out there. In fact, humanists have become pretty judgmental, themselves, as of late, listening to the likes of Richard Dawkins, David Suzuki, and Christopher Hitchens. Some of the comments here might fit the bill for being judgmental, too. Sauce for the goose.

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DL

- November 9, 2009 at 15:39:30

Mark 2:27 27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. I didn’t grow up Adventist and the more churches I went to the more I saw teachings trying to fit God into whatever they wanted to be right rather than truly searching with all their hearts and loving Him for who He truly is. When you get married and love someone you do the dishes because you love them, by them gifts to bring joy and give them one on one time to still grow in knowing each other. If I got married and my husband said our date night was Monday and I chose to take work of on Tuesday to meet up with him not only did I respect his decision but I missed out on a great day with him. I love God so I don’t kill, I love God so I don’t steal , I love God so I keep the Sabbath. The bible is clear that even though God is infinite he created time and a 7 day week. (Gen1:1,Gen1:30-Gen2:1-3) God is perfect He doesn’t make mistakes. We shouldn’t fool ourselves that there is such thing as “mans time” because God created life (Gen2:7)and only God knows when it will be taken away(Eccl9:12). Plus the bible is clear we will keep Sabbath in heaven which is eternal (Isa66:22-23) and it’s God who directly say’s that He is 100% right all the time. Also it’s not judging someone to try to teach them what Jesus says. Christians are not only commanded to judge but to judge righteously and not just by appearance. John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." It’s not a matter of judging it’s self being bad but in what spirit you judge and what motive. If it is to bring people close to God and have them see their short comings that is different. Christians must use spiritual discernment in coming to conclusions on matters of right or wrong or good and evil. If God could change the law Jesus would not have had to die to make us perfect in the law because none of us are even born able to keep the law. If I love Jesus I should follow His example and He kept Sabbath would you tell Jesus that He was wrong in doing so?( Luke 13:10).He also preached on the Sabbath does that mean he broke it? God also heals on the Sabbath(Matthew 12:10-13) and I have many friends who work as nurses to heal and then give that money they made away to the church and other charities therefore working for free. I think not. People act like it’s a horrible inconvenience to have to keep the Sabbath. It’s a great gift from God he actually made it for me to not go crazy and so I can be able to rest (2:27) not only that but if heaven is going to be perfect and Sabbath is going to be part of heaven then why not have a piece of heaven now. There are many more bible verse but God is very clear that He hold us accountable for what He has chosen to reveal to us.( Luke 16:10-12, Luke 19:11-27) There are many people saved and love Jesus who are not keeping Sabbath but when God chooses to reveal this truth to them they won’t see it as a burden but a blessing and I was one of those people. It doesn’t make anyone better but it sure does help me in my biggest life goal which is to be in close communion with God. Just because some people who are seventh day Adventist Christian seem to care more about laws then Jesus doesn’t mean that is what it’s all about. The biggest mistake a Christian can make is making decisions based on people’s faults. No one can be a Christian without Christ so follow His example not the fallen race He is trying to save to the uttermost. If it’s good enough for Christ and the Kingdom of heaven He will take us to by His grace than its good enough for me. I fear God because I love Him and I pray He leads me to a life where I don’t hurt Him with my selfishness anymore.(prov1:7) Eccl12:13-14 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all. 14 For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.

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anna1

- November 9, 2009 at 13:08:33

As a former Seventh Day Adventist I am once again reminded why I specifically chose to deny your brand of 'religion.' In my experience SDA members are concerned about the 'rules' to the extent of being self righteous, judgemental hypocrites. Was the bible written for you to use to control and judge people? I recall your mom working saturdays as a nurse to feed your family, will she be shunned from heaven? And if you were giving your seminar on Friday night at 7pm - you were working on the sabbath. You are free to have your own beliefs but not to judge others by them.

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TA

- November 9, 2009 at 12:27:42

Thank God I'm an Atheist!

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stevo

- November 9, 2009 at 12:25:54

Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are intellectual slave holders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction.

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Brad LaLonde

- November 9, 2009 at 12:04:41

I believe God is speaking clearly through the Bible. Is it a matter of the heart? Yes, I agree 100%. The first example that proves this to us in the Bible is in Genesis chapter 4, The story of Cain and Able. God commanded them to bring a lamb for an offering. Were they saved by what they brought? No, but it revealed where there heart was at. Cain brought the very best fruit he had. For all intents and purposes, his heart was fully wanting to please God. But in the very act of disobedience, of substituting what God wanted for what he wanted he showed God that his heart was not sincere. Able on the other hand was not saved by the lamb, but in bringing a lamb it showed that his heart was trusting in the power of God. In the same way, in keeping the Sabbath day God chose, namely the seventh day of the week, I am putting my trust in the power of God to save. Hebrews 10:16-17 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," (17) then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." I take the whole Bible as truth, (2 Timothy 3:16), and that God does not lie, (Titus 1:2). In saying this I take God's word that Creation took a 7 day week. Here are 6 reasons why I keep it. I see no Biblical change in the day. 1. God blessed the seventh day at creation, (Genesis 2:1-3). 2. God told his people to "Remember" it at Sini. (Exodus 20:8-11, Deut 5:12-15). 3. Jesus kept the Sabbath in his life (Luke 4:16). 4. Jesus Prophesied that it would still be important after he went to heaven, (Matthew 24:20). 5. The Apostles continued to keep the Sabbath (Acts 17:2). 6. God's last day people will keep the commandments (Revelation 12:17,14:12,)

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• 

  Convenient

  - November 9, 2009 at 16:36:13

  Only one comment. I find it convenient that you have deemed the end of the day to be sunset so that you can work on the sabbath. I wonder where in the bible it makes that claim? If you were truly a god-fearing man, you would not be making excuses for promoting your own agenda on what the SDA claims is the Holy sabbath. Also: "He said God’s laws are similar to society’s laws in that you only need to break one in order to go to jail. He added, at the time of Armageddon each of the 10 Commandments will still be binding." God's love is boundless and all will be forgiven at each individual's judgement day if the individual but asks for forgiveness and is truly repentant.

J.J.

- November 9, 2009 at 09:51:19

Why isn't God telling those of other denominations they have it all wrong? Explain why God says He looks at the heart; not outward appearances? How do we know there was a "Saturday" in God's week; if, in fact, God even had a week? Time is man's creation; God is eternal. What about the poor dude who has to work Saturday, and Sunday, for that matter? It's heart motive that counts; not did we put our socks on right according to denominational dogma. Sorry, Brad; I don't buy it.

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• 

  jc

  - November 9, 2009 at 13:56:45

  The bible is very clear on the issue of the sabbath. It is clear that God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it this is found in genesis chapter 2 and repeated in the commandments found in Exodus 20.God's word is simple and his instructions are specific and they will stand forever. My prayer for everyone that doesn't understand or simply doesn't believe to pray and ask God that gives wisdom to all men liberally and without reproach. Accept the humble spirit of Jesus Christ and be not wise in your own eyes. Read the word of God and in it you willl find true wisdom. God bless u